From Big Law to Juice Bars to General Counsel: Embracing the Builder Mindset with Heather Stevenson

Welcome to Studying Law Around the World. I'm Claudio Claus. In each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life. We talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths. Whether you're planning to study abroad, thinking about working in another legal system, or just curious about how law works around the world, this podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to host Heather Stevenson. She has an incredible career. She's been, you know, in some of my favorite shows as well, and involved with some of my favorite organizations. She's been in Jenna Perlin's show. She also is one of the founding board members of the Legal Mentor Network. But not only that, she has an incredible career as a lawyer, as a general counsel, and also she has even been, you know, the owner of a juice bar business for several years. Thank you so much for making the time. Very kind introduction. Absolutely. And just to start off, I know I mentioned a few, you know, things of your career, but would you mind introducing yourself to our listeners? Sure. So I am currently general counsel to Red Cell Partners. We are a venture firm and incubator, meaning that we both build and invest in lots of different companies. We operate mainly in the national security, cybersecurity, and healthcare spaces. And so I've been doing that for about four years. I absolutely love it. It combines my interest in the law and business and being truly a builder, not just giving legal advice. So that's been really fun. But backing up, I started my career in big law. I was a securities litigator at Sullivan and Cromwell. After that, I stopped for a bit, founded a juice bar, as you mentioned. I did that for a few years, opened a couple locations. It was great, but I ended up missing practicing law, which surprised even me, and ended up making my way in-house. My first in-house role was at the Boston Globe, where I joined as a legal counsel, very junior role, kind of worked my way up there and ended up getting connected to Red Cell. I had never planned to leave the Globe. It's such a cool paper. I know your listeners are international, but as I did, it's really an institution here. People love it. We care about it. So it was really a special thing to get to be there. But when the Red Cell opportunity came up, it was just such a perfect kind of combination of my interests and skills that I moved there. Amazing. And you just mentioned, you know, you described yourself as someone who is a company builder very much beyond being, you know, a lawyer and giving legal advice. So what does that mindset look like in practice? And I'm curious as well, if that also comes from your experience as an entrepreneur yourself. I think my experience as an entrepreneur made me realize how important it is to have everybody kind of on your team being some sort of builder. But I don't think you have to have been an entrepreneur to take on the builder mindset. When I say that, I mean, kind of the opposite of the Department of No type lawyer that a lot of in-house departments have. So that reputation is that legal is just blockers. They say no to everything. They don't innovate. And a lot of those departments actually, I think, are perfectly well-intentioned and they're trying to protect the company from risk. And they are so risk averse and so focused on preventing anything bad from happening that they inadvertently stall the path to growth, to revenue, to all sorts of good things. In contrast, a company builder is somebody who's in there, in the room with business colleagues with people across the company saying, not just, okay, here are the guardrails because that's one part of a lawyer's job, but also how can we best do this to find new white spaces, new opportunity? Where is the law changing maybe in a way that could even benefit us? Does this restriction open up a space because one of a lot more proactive and forward-looking? And I think being the builder is really the next thing. In-house lawyers for a while could be just kind of risk mitigators and they could get away with it. But then it became business-minded, meaning they at least understood that their goal was to move the business forward and business partners. Now we really have to be builders in the room. At least that's my take. We'll see. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing it. And, you know, I'd love to listen a little bit more about this story of leaving Big Lodge to start a juice bar. Let's say it's a little bit of an unconventional move for a lawyer, but I understand it had to do with a lot of your interests, a lot of the career moments you were living as well. Can you tell us a little bit more about that? Absolutely. And yeah, you're being very polite. It was totally random seeming and a lot of people probably are still wondering what I was doing. So back when I was practicing law in New York, I was also training for ultra marathons with my husband, fiance, husband, along with, you know, around this time period. And we got really into juices and smoothies as a way of fueling our training. in New York around this time, like 2013-ish, there were starting to be tons of juice bars. They were already in California. They were not in Boston yet. And I'm from Boston and we kind of noticed this market gap. I got to a point in my career at S&C where I realized it wasn't bad. There was a lot I liked about it. The people were fantastic. I really liked the partners I worked for. I liked my colleagues. The work was important. But when I thought about the next 40 years, I didn't think I'd be happy if I kind of woke up at 60 or 65 and looked back and that had been my life. And so as I started to think about what other options I could do, the idea of starting something in food kind of came up as a little bit of a joke initially, because my husband and I both loved food. He was also a lawyer at the time. He founded the juice bar with me and he also is now. And so when we realized that we were going to stop the herb time, the law will always be there. Yeah, maybe it was crazy, but it's turned out to be incredibly valuable for me for the rest of my career. I don't think I would probably have the job I do now if I didn't have the entrepreneurship background. Because part of what Red Cell was hiring for when they hired me was someone who would really understand these early stage founders. And having been there myself, I get it. I understand the stresses. Fantastic. No, I love that. Something that I find very interesting is, you know, how much you have been also giving back to the community. And I'm curious, you know, if, in a way, if mentorship played a big role in your career as well and throughout these transitions and even, you know, through law school and deciding to be a lawyer to start with. But looking at all of these contexts you just shared with us, including, you know, being an in-house counsel, being a business builder, and maybe as a piece of mentorship now, as a piece of advice to young lawyers who might be listening to us, are there a few specific skills that you think that young lawyers should start developing if they want to stay, you know, valuable in their career, if they want to have optionalities? And also, of course, you know, in this whole context of the world, having a few twists and turns, there's a lot of, you know, AI concerns going around. What are some of your thoughts on all of that? That's such an important question. And I feel like it's one that I can't go a single day without talking to somebody about in the last few months because of AI specifically. It is changing so quickly that those of us who are already years into our career are trying to figure out what we need to learn next. And so I can only imagine, and I really feel for, how potentially challenging and scary it can be for law students and junior lawyers. All that said, I still think there's huge opportunity and the skills that they're going to need are going to be a little bit different than what, you know, someone like me who graduated from law school in 2011 needed. So if I were in law school or a junior now, I would be doing a few things. I would definitely learn how to use the AI tools that are out there and to do so responsibly. There have been a lot of embarrassing stories of law firms and lawyers, including unfortunately S&C, submitting briefs that were not, they didn't use AI properly, they didn't check for hallucinations. You need to get into those great habits now. Setting all that aside, because I assume that within 24 months, everybody's going to know you have to know how to use AI and do it responsibly. Some of the other skills that I think are going to be so important are things like building relationships and you were talking about mentorship, absolutely. Find your mentors now. You can do that so easily just by reaching out to people a little bit ahead of you and asking to hear their story. People love to tell their story. They love to try and help junior lawyers, but also peers, you know, build relationships kind of across the legal industry with your law school classmates, because trust is going to be such a big part of what's next. And the more people you know, the kind of more collective trust there is, and the more chances there are that when you're working with somebody, you actually know them already. I would also say, get really good at learning to learn if you're not already there. And I think if you've made it through law school, you're probably pretty good at it, but that's been structured. That was just a totally random example, like learn to you because the practice of figuring out, okay, here's how I can learn on my own. I'm not highlighting a textbook and going through the Socratic method, at least as we did in the US. I'm really figuring it out on my own is I think going to be such a valuable skill. And then the other thing I would say is read history. So read how people have thought about things before. Read about how business disputes have played out before. What you're trying to do is learn to build judge the mistakes other people have made. And you can really do that by reading almost anything about people. So you don't have to read like a psychology book or a judgment book, read biographies, whatever actually interests you and you'll start to see patterns that would take somebody who doesn't read, you know, 10 to 15 years of practicing to develop, but you can do it by reading a few books. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing it. It's always incredible to be, you know, on the host seat here because I get to hear so much valuable advice and I especially value the kind of advice that it's not what you obviously, you know, kind of see on Google or all of that. So I really appreciate you bringing this up. I think they're so timely and so valuable. And one thing that I also appreciate is that, you know, your LinkedIn presence, you bring up a lot of different stories in a very human way. You talk openly about, you know, health, joy, flexibility, kindness, so many topics that let's say if you're trying to be a polished, proper lawyer on LinkedIn, you know what I mean? People are not sharing those real human parts of being a human being behind the computer, you know what I mean? And I'm curious, you know, do you have some thoughts of, you know, why the profession still struggles so much to have those kinds of conversations? And also on the other end, you know, do you feel like your clients, your, you know, colleagues, everybody can relate to you more and even, you know, come to you with problems that maybe they wouldn't talk with other lawyers just because you really let show that human, maybe even like vulnerable side of yourself on the internet. So starting with your last question first, 100%, the fact that I am more human, am more approachable and definitely not that super polished lawyer in a suit on LinkedIn or in real life lets people feel more comfortable coming to me. And I think that that is so valuable. It means my colleagues who are my clients at this point are willing to come even with some little thing, the type of thing where I know they'll say to me, I think this is a stupid question, but, and you know, they wouldn't bring that question to somebody who they thought was going to judge them or wouldn't take them seriously or would find them an annoyance. So I think there's a huge value in putting that human first side forward. And so that's part of why I do it. I also do it because I really do want to push our profession in the direction of being real people. Like we spend so much of our time in our, a lot of people spend that time feeling like they have to be this stiff, unfun version of themselves. And some of them probably are stiff, unfun people, but I think all fancy lawyer people right in the firms and you see their face outward to the world and like they are the fancy, you know, do stand up comedy on the weekends. And I wish that we could meld that more. I think over time we will get there. And part of the challenge is that historically people trusted lawyers because of like our credentials and that we were somehow isn't to be around. And I'm certainly having more fun. Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that. I did touch on this a little bit, but why don't you, should go back into that, you know, you serve on the board of the Legal Mentor Network. We're part of the network. And I was so happy just about a week or two ago, I saw that there's a funnel and there's going to be, you know, one of the, maybe I might be wrong on this, but one of the first, you know, Canadian in-person meetups. I'm so, so happy to see it growing so much because it's such an interesting and very necessary community, especially when we're, you know, among so many, you know, first generation lawyers and maybe lawyers that didn't really have that much of a support network. So having, you know, lawyers who are willing to do that. And I find that this is an incredible profession in that sense. You know, we are all kind of figuring out what you do, what you should do next. But a lot of people are very, very willing to give up their time to chat a little bit and to, you know, share some wisdom with the next generation, which I'm very, very thankful for. And as a matter of fact, I previously had Brian Potts on the podcast. We spoke a little bit about the initiative and his personal story with mentorship and making, you know, the career more accessible for younger lawyers. I really appreciate that you mentioned this point on credentials just before. I've been, you know, kind of trying to hone in my message and what are the things that really matter. And when I try to boil down all the lessons that I learned in this podcast, over 150 episodes, the phrase I came up with was basically, you know, in legal careers, communication matters more than credentials. And I found it so interesting because, you know, a lawyer will come here and he will tell me, you know, it's all about visibility and personal branding. And then I'm like, oh, OK, that's another way to say communication. You know, and then another lawyer will come and say, oh, that's, you know, the way that I email my boss and I copy him on the emails and this and that. That's what gave me, you know, a very successful career. And I'm like, oh, OK, so communication. So it's always fun how it kind of always goes back to that, you know. And I'm curious, you know, what motivated you to get involved with the organization? What impact have you seen so far? And maybe how has mentorship played a role for you? Yeah, I am so excited and honored, you know, to be part of the Legal Mentor Network. I think, as you were saying, it's really a fantastic organization and it's working really hard and I think doing a good job of starting to fill that mentorship gap for students who and junior lawyers who aren't coming out of law schools that have these fantastic networks. Not every law school has the same career services office or the same alumni network or whatever the thing is. And not every law school is just kind of like plunking people into big law firms and they're easily all set and their job search is super easy. So I think that's great. I got involved because during COVID, I got to know one of the founders, Matt Schwartz, online a little bit. And I had been doing these things I called carpool career chats, where I would post online that, like, you know, I'm going to be driving my son home from school. It wasn't really during carpool, but like, I'm going to drive my son home, son to school. I have nothing to do on the way home. So if you're a junior lawyer or someone on a non-traditional career path and you want to talk, like, sign up and you can call me while I'm in the car because I wouldn't be doing anything else anyway. And I'd love to talk. Matt saw that and reached out and was like, hey, like, this is really cool. And also we're going to build something much bigger because there's just one of you. And wouldn't it be great to be part of a bigger organization and recruit? In terms of my own career, yeah, mentorship has been huge. At every single step, I've had mentors, you know, within my job. To me, the most is how valuable some of the completely informal mentorship type relationships I've had have been with people who are just a few years ahead of me, who I reached out to on LinkedIn or through a friend of a friend or somebody, you know, connected us by text. And the reason I mentioned that is that anybody should look for the opportunity in these casual light mentorship relationships because they are accessible to everybody. Anyone who's somewhere where Legal Mentor Network serves should also absolutely sign up, get a mentor if you're junior, become a mentor if you have more experience. But, you know, we're growing the network and I think that's a great resource. I also had the advantage of having two parents who were big law lawyers. We didn't call it big law back in the 90s. And I got to see them and their kind of professional lives and got to know all those people. And I saw early on just how essential the relationships were. And I think that's part of what made me interested in making mentorship available to everyone is it's not just that I'll teach you how to do something. It's you need to know people and you start to get to know people. And a lot of people, I think, feel like, oh, I'm somehow an outsider. No, like if you're in law school or you've graduated or whatever, you're not part of the legal community, reach out, strengthen those relationships. And unbelievable things can can happen just from having relationships in place. Absolutely. I'm a big believer on networks and the power that mentorship can really bring about and really, you know, change completely the outcome of someone's life and career. So I find that so motivating. Something that I also wanted to mention, you know, we talked a little bit about the human side of the profession and all of that. But I also wanted to ask you, you know, you've shared quite a bit about communication and in-house leadership and those texts also were so interesting. And I feel like there's always you did say something about the Department of No, right, and how in a way we're known as that for some for some time. And maybe some people might, you know, refer it that way. But I wanted to ask you, you know, what what separates those lawyers who become, you know, trusted strategic advisors from those who maybe will stay a little bit more stuck on the technical legal lane or, you know, who have maybe a little bit of a harder time being able to have the buying of all those stakeholders inside a business? Yeah, I think it's completely mindset more than skill. I think any lawyer can become the business builder, business partner, valued advisor, whatever you want to call it. It's like we all have the skills sufficient for that. And you have to reframe your role from just I'm here to protect the company, which you are. That's an important part of your job, too. I'm here to make this place better. And that means protecting it. And it also means finding ways to improve all this stuff. And I realize that that is a very non-technical. Way to describe a lawyer's job, but it means, you know, how are you helping improve the contracts and also how are you helping improve the relationships between the legal team and the marketing team? And can legal be a hub to put in place some sort of process that smooths the friction that exists across all the departments or across all the verticals? And so it really is just thinking differently about your role. I think doing so requires letting go of a lot of ego that lawyers tend to arrive with and that is completely understandable. Right. We go to three extra years of school to learn to be lawyers. And so we want to think my lawyer view, that is very important. I worked hard to be able to have this view. I paid a ton of money to be able to do it. I spent all these late nights in the library. And that's all true. But that can't be the lead for every conversation. And it certainly can't be the first thing people think of when they think of you in terms of relationships internally. You have to let go of it a little bit, even though like, yeah, you earned it. It's a big deal. You should be proud. But you don't lead with it. You lead with I'm here to help. I'm here to build. I am just like you, not I am separate, better than different. Beautiful. To wrap up today's episode. I wanted to ask you, you know, for law students, junior lawyers listening to today's episode from different parts of the world or maybe different career paths. Maybe they're doing something that they're not really passionate about just yet. You know, the first job out of law school. And I'm curious, you know, what kind of advice would you give to someone trying to build a meaningful, sustainable, fulfilling legal career today? Yeah. So a couple of things. One, in the beginning, it's not going to be exciting. And that is a huge bummer. But you kind of just have to accept that there is some time when you're mostly going to be learning. That said, you shouldn't be being abused, yell that, have a terrible experience during that time. You're just not going to be writing the Supreme Court brief or actually arguing the motion or whatever the thing is in your area of law. But you have to understand that those early years are years when you're mostly there to learn. And if you're somewhere like the U.S. where you actually also can get paid for those years, that's a really great deal. Boring as it may be. So put in those years. The next thing I would say is you only get one body. And I mean that physically. No matter how important work feels, no matter how hard it is, prioritize that. Prioritize getting sleep. Prioritize exercising. Prioritize eating well. Prioritize, you know, not drinking all the alcohol. There will be times when you can't do that. I mean, I have a kid. I just got a puppy there. Yeah, there are times when that just won't be realistic. But don't let work ruin you. I think there's unfortunately this like hustle culture that seems to be creeping back into the mainstream. And it's not worth it. You have to do all those things for yourself. But also, if you don't, then you're not going to have a successful career anyway, because nobody wants to work with a lawyer who's like always out sick because they haven't slept enough or who is unhappy or too tired because they don't take care of themselves. And you're not going to have the mental ability if your body's not there to focus and learn. And then the third and final thing, although I could probably go on for 20 minutes on this, is be open to possibilities. I started my career thinking that I was going to be a big law partner. And I had a whole plan. I was going to be a big law litigator. I was going to leave for a couple of years to clerk, go back to the firm, go to the U.S. attorney's office, and eventually go back to the firm as a partner. That is like an insanely detailed plan. And I made it through step one. And then I started a juice bar. And it has been so fun. So if you open up your mind to the possibility that like you don't you might not know what's next and that's OK, I think it will go great for you. And the final related piece to that is joy is a competitive advantage. It is it will pay dividends professionally. So find ways to find joy in your career. It won't just make your career more fulfilling. It will also make you better as a lawyer. Amazing. Thank you so much, Heather, once again, for making the time to come to the show. And thank you all for listening in, tuning in to today's episode. Thanks so much for having me.