Community, Innovation, and Resilience with Patricia Gannon

Welcome to studying law around the world I'm Claudio Claus in each episode, I talk with lawyers, law students, and professors from different parts of the world to talk about legal education, careers, and what the profession looks like in real life we talk about the hard parts, the surprises, and the decisions that shaped their paths whether you're planning. To study abroad. Thinking about working in another legal system or just curious about how law works around the world? This podcast is for you. Today I have the opportunity to host Patricia Gannon. She has over 30 years in the legal profession. She is the founder and CEO of Flatform 9, an incredible app where legal minds can connect. It's an interactive podcast, and we'll hear all about it today. Thank you so much for making the time to be in the podcast, Patricia. Great to be with you. Really appreciate it. And to start off our conversation, I'd love for you to introduce yourself to our listeners and maybe what inspired you, you know, in this journey from an international law firm founder to attack entrepreneur. Well, it's an interesting life and you never know where you're going to end up, right? So you got to be kind of open minded and flexible along the way. My background is I am an Irish qualified lawyer. I studied law in Trinity College in Dublin. I was always interested in international law and in the comparatives. You know, I would because I love to travel now. This is why I love your podcast, love the idea of, you know, getting some personal experience and then understanding professionally what's going on in different parts of the world. So I knew kind of from day one when I studied law, I was not going to spend my whole career in Ireland. So for me, moving around was key. I spent some time at a German interdisciplinary law firm in Munich. I spent some time at the European Commission in Brussels. And then I ended up for my sins down in the Balkans, which was a super interesting move for me because it was obviously it was a personal story to start with. But then together with my partner, we built what became the largest law firm in former Yugoslavia with over 200 lawyers in eight markets. So that was kind of a, you know, you know, not something I thought I would be doing, but the opportunity presented itself and I guess having a bit of an open mindset, I just thought, let's try this, what can we lose? And it was a great journey. Fantastic. Let's dive right into that. Tell me a little bit more about, you know, building the largest law firm in the Balkans. Looking back, are there a few, you know, important lessons about leadership, trust, culture that really stayed with you? Oh my gosh, yes, absolutely. I mean, firstly, I think timing is key. You know, in life, you know, there's the right time and the wrong time. And also mindset is key, which is, you know, there's the right mindset that makes it work or there's the wrong mindset and it fails, right. So there's getting that sort of right is kind of important. And for us, because there were no law firms in that part of the world in the way we know in the Western world. So we were the first fully integrated, multiple sort of practice area, uh, oriented firm. So a structure where lawyers didn't just sort of historically, they used to just share the expenses in a in a common often space, but each lawyer was very much an individual on their own. So the idea of building a firm where people would be trained to perform in the same way where you build a brand, that's one of the things I love to do. I like building brands. I think they need to mean something. So that means that you hire the right people who fit into your brand, you communicate in similar way, you know, around your brand, you attract the same type of clients. So it's really, really important on brand. So if I look back at I spent 20 years doing that, So growing from zero to, you know, to this number and successfully economically in a world which was just emerging from, you know, the war in Yugoslavia was, was kind of key, I guess determined, you know, this, this original determination to build something that was unique. I think that was probably the first driver. Secondly, really bringing the younger lawyers along with us. I think for me and anyone who knows me and a lot of people do over these years, and they do know that I love bringing younger lawyers with me on the journey. So sharing the experience, bringing them to events, being very open about how you get clients, all of that stuff is super, super important. And today probably even more than ever in terms of sort of, I guess leadership style, I tend to be fast and furious a little bit. Um, it might be difficult, but I would hope fair, you know, a determined direct. I mean, that's the Irish. I guess I'm a, I do talk a lot. She'll have already observed, and that's all to the Irish inmate. But I think that's important in building, you know, relationships with people. Oh, that's amazing, but what a story. So considering all of that contacts, you know, I, I believe that many lawyers think a lot about career transitions. There's a lot of hesitation in the field anywhere in the world talking to over 100 lawyers now. It's been very clear that that's kind of widespread. And I'm curious to know, you know, for you personally, what gave you the confidence, you know, step into something new after, you know, a long time in a successful legal career? No, you're absolutely right, and I didn't do it overnight. I mean, as is normal with lawyers, you sort of you think about things for quite a while before you do them. And so for me, it was about IGS successfully exit and sold my business. So #1 you know, leads to stage of my life where I'd had one successful career and I didn't want to do the same thing again. That was clear. And then came COVID, you know, which had a huge impact on all of us in terms of evaluating what, what we wanted to do. So I went back and spent quite a bit of time, including with, you know, a coach on, you know, looking at what are my core values, you know, for whatever length of time I have on the planet, you know, what are the core values that are important to me. And I feel I'm very much in a privileged position in that I can actually build something that adheres to my core values, which are one, I think I've alluded to it earlier is bringing younger lawyers along on their journey earlier in their career to I'm a fundamental believe believer in human communication. I think we need to communicate even more effectively in an age of AI than less effectively. We need to have the skills and the confidence to do so, which, you know, increasingly we're seeing people on that. It's on the decline. People are less comfortable about live sessions or maybe less comfortable about speaking. And we hear there's a lot of texting and what's happening and all of that going on. But let's look at the human voice because that's ultimately and, and even today, that's ultimately how we're connecting with people now. So I managed to do and then combining that with efficiency. So I'm all about efficiency. So rather than sending, for example, lawyers all over the world to different events and stuff, let's find a way where we can bring the events to them in the place that where they're always present, which is on their devices. That's amazing. That's amazing. So just before I ask you a little more about, you know, your, your app and all of that, I wanted to ask you, you know what, what role has, you know, networking, building communities played in your life? Vital, absolutely vital. Firstly, I, I now know I'm a Nash worker. I'm a, I'm a connector. I love connecting people, even if I get nothing out of it, but I have, I like putting people together there. That's a certain personality type and I clearly have it. I am also an entrepreneur. Now I realise that much later, not not lawyer, lawyer, but actually an entrepreneur, which is that I, I see opportunity everywhere, you know, and you actually have to tame that down sometimes. Networking is super important, building your own network of people, like minded people and even different people to yourself. This is where, you know, in a very polarized world, I felt it's really important to bring together people that you don't necessarily agree with, but you can have a professional, respectful conversation about how you disagree with each other. And keeping a space open to be able to do that is key for me. Amazing. Now let's dive in and learn a little bit about Platform 9. I want to hear, you know what it is. Can you tell our listeners and and also how does it change the way the lawyers connect and learn? Yeah, love us. I mean, it is kind of still a unique product. There doesn't seem to be anything like it's in the world, which is either a good thing or a very bad thing. And we'll find out where a startup obviously as a startup platform 9 does. It is like an interactive podcast, if that's the best way to describe it. Some of you guys might have been on Clubhouse in the early days during COVID. Similar model to clubhouse in, you know, in terms of the back end, as in it's, uh, it's a, it's a conversation. So rather than a panel or even a webinar where people have ready made content and they're really just in a way regurgitating ready made content, right? This is actually quite authentic because yes, we have our moderators who speak a little bit about the topic, that of of the day and of the session, but ultimately we open up of the conversation to everybody in the audience. So people like to participate. What makes it different to a podcast is you can raise your hand and you can have your say. That's quite nice. That's amazing. That's quite incredible. I was reading a little bit about your platform and the the materials you put out there and they say it's very much described as, you know, people first space in legal tech. And I love how you explained a little bit about, you know, the concept and how people can participate. I'm curious to know, you know, how do you make sure it stays, it stays human centred in this, you know, fast moving AI world? We are so right and it is a challenge, you know, the shiny, shiny AI, shiny shiny parts is, is something that we, you know, we use AI for our session memories. That's at our integration with AI. And but we are human first because people still want to be part of communities. And you know, we've made that a choice at this at this time and that it's really only individual lawyers. They gather in forums. Those forums are specific communities of lawyers. So right now, you know, we have international arbitration, we have coaching, we've business development, we have law firm management, we have students, we have, you know, practice AI act. We have a whole load of very specific forums. Because what we realized is that of LinkedIn is a fantastic tool for lawyers and clearly the most important one out there when it comes to professionals, but it's actually isn't really a good community building. And we felt using voice around regular content, you know, hosted in your forum so that every, you know, say your forum does a session every Tuesday at 12. You know, you're going to hear the voices of people like yourself who have similar interests or our practical issues with their with their practice and that they want to learn from. So, you know, the sessions are live, they're recorded, they're then transcribed and summarized with AI. And which means that we get like literally for 1/2 an hour. We micro dose, by the way, on content. We're not doing more than half an hour. Lawyers, as we all know, have a tendency to speak and can be somewhat long winded. So we decided at a very early stage, let's keep it to 30 minutes more regular, 30 minutes. Short, snappy, to the point, properly summarized, is exactly the kind of content our lawyers want. Amazing. And I wanna hear it. We were just at the beginning of February. Now, as we record this podcast, I wanna hear what kinds of conversations are are happening in the platform and also, you know what makes it special and that you don't see out there. I know it's a good point. Like yesterday I made a great session with the lovely Helen Burness, who is an expert in, in LinkedIn for lawyers. So we did and we had a really interactive session because there was lots of people there. Um, you know, we maybe 3540 people live who asked very practical questions about how the algorithm has changed on LinkedIn, how we can, you know, tweak our content to be more relevant and to build the community. I mean, it is clearly in this day, it was one of the points she made I thought was wonderful. LinkedIn is the ultimate business marketplace, but it is very much about it is people buying people. And what we took away from all of that is that, you know, yes, you demonstrate on your LinkedIn strategy, you may demonstrate your expertise and, and you know, you just demystify some of your practice area, but ultimately you have, it's your personal brand. So we do talk a lot about how lawyers and younger, you know, not younger lawyers, but all lawyers really needs to develop a personal brand, which needs to be authentic and consistent without taking up too much time. I think that's the other feature, all the lawyers we talk to, everyone is super time poor. So how can we find ways in which we can be efficient with our time and yet build our personal brand? So that makes it quite difference. What have we got? Tomorrow we're doing a wonderful session on the European AI Act and there are new guidelines expected in Europe. This is hugely important to everybody. We've done comparisons last year with the Americans. We're also taking a look at in the future with China. So we're looking at blocks of different regulation all over the world. And that's something we quite like to do on this app. We quite like to be able to compare and contrast what's going on in different parts of the world. And that's been a bit of fun. People like that, that makes it different. I think not. Absolutely, absolutely no. I love that. I'm also curious to know, you know, how are you seeing young lawyers using the platform? And also, you know, how can each group learn from each other, thinking about, you know, senior professionals joining in, early career professionals joining in. Good point. We did a lovely session last year, probably end of April. We did, um, a legal career week and we specifically targeted universities in the UK and Ireland. We're going global, but we're not doing it every country. And at the same time, obviously we're doing it baby step, baby step and, and understanding the community better. So a lot of our, lot of our time and energy is spent on deep diving into the personas that we're trying to attract and they are all slightly different personas. So for, if you look at our law students, our aim with the law students was to help them understand the opportunities that are available to them once they get their degree and also to take a look at the practical skills that they need in order to get those jobs. So we did a week long of sessions where we brought in some early careers people from some of the bigger firms. We took a full deep dive into the methodology that they use when they're hiring. So how they're using AI, when they're evaluating the CVS, how they integrate the what they're looking for, what are the legal skills of the non legal skills is another really important factor. And there's a lot of focus on that now. So we would also do things like we did a little 3 minute elevator pitch. We were literally, people were on the on and I remember turning around and just say, OK guys, you know, Tom, you were there, you know, you got 3 minutes to tell me why you shouldn't hire you. And Tom, you know, fumbles his way through, you know, I because I got a 21IN whatever and I love law and whatever. It's like, no, that's not going to hack it. Now we gotta, we gotta do better than that. So actually it's, you know, it's done in a very safe space and then in a very generous way. But the idea is to get people to think a little bit more about how they present themselves. So that was a really interesting thing last year. We've had wonderful drawed Haddon last on last week, who um, is running a newsletter AI and how AI and being educated in AI is affecting his traineeship at the moment. So that was quite interesting. And we will build out communities and that look mash the impact of AI used in law firms on their training and the concerns that many of them have about how this will change their role in the future and their progression in the futures. All of these discussions are very real. And that's that particular segment. Clearly the, you know, two or three years post qualified will have different issues. Um, many that are on, you know, a senior associate levels looking at career progression. They're looking at ways in which they can validate to their employer that they have a thought leadership role, that they have something to say. And they have a very nice medium with platform 9. And to be able to say it in, you know, to build their own community in their way, we've got to let younger lawyers do some things in their way. Using and looking ahead, what what's next for for the platform? Continuing to grow we've just signed, um, we're signing paid pilots now with large organizations like the Law Society in Ireland has just signed a large, um, a large pilot for a large number of in-house councils in Ireland. That's this is kind of exclusive. We haven't really publicly announced yet, but anyways, we're working on it in the background and we've just introduced new features on the app. So, uh, live from 1st of March, we now you can join using your LinkedIn makes it much easier to get on to the app and we are building out the forums in full force. So lots of communities are being built on this app and we have introduced a Twitter like function which allows lawyers even outside of the live sessions and listening into the recordings. You know, we realize it wasn't live enough, there wasn't enough going on. So we've introduced this kind of stickiness feature, which is like Twitter. So basically, you know, you listen into it and you, you've got something to say or you got a comparative or you've got your office newsletter they'd like to share with the particular group. Um, that way we keep people on longer and they get more value out of it. As a final thing here to to close today's episode, I wanted to ask you if you were, you know, to give your younger self living in this generation, I kind of advice that you you wish you had heard early in your career as a lawyer and that you know, is informed by all the, the intelligence that you've collected and wisdom throughout your life. What would you you know recommend or what kind of advice would you give yourself? I think at the end of the day, probably took a lot of things far too seriously. I, I love what I do. I've always loved what I do and I builder, I'm full of energy, I'm blessed with energy. So I think look after your energy. Try not to be affected by negativity around you. There's so much negativity out there. Just try to protect yourself from that negativity by being associated with other positive, enabling people who are somewhat hopeful for the future and, and enjoy it. Do what you enjoy. The resilience is a story that we, we get a lot, You know, older lawyers tend to be a little skeptical about the levels of resist, you know, resilience that younger lawyers might have. And I just think they're growing up in a fundamentally different world and there's a lot of external pressure. There's a lot of, you know, the multitasking is huge. The new technology is huge. There's a fear factor out there. What does that mean? I would just say keep an open agile mindset. You are the, what you're doing today may be very different in five years time. And just being curious enough to explore it, just try it. What do you lose? What do you know? What do you lose it? You know, and, and forgive yourself if it's not perfect. Lawyers tend to be really, really hard on themselves. You know, we're not perfect. We're not machines. You've got the AI for that. You know, we're, we're the human part, right? So find the right people around you, develop your own personal resilience by by taking breaks and not being so hard on yourself, and just keep an open mind. Yeah, that'd be about it. Amazing. I really appreciate it and thank you all for tuning into today's episode. Loved it. Thank you. Great one.